I don't want to give away the ending, but you deliberately leave Brandon's fate undecided. I don't know what direction he's going, but I have to say I fear the worst for the guy.
There has to be some kind of glimmer of hope. I hope he doesn't get off that train! But of course he might stay on the train this time and get off another time. I don't know. All of us are trying , that's the thing. We're all on that train. I want cinema to be like a mirror, that reflects the audience, so we see ourselves on the screen. Sometimes people might not want to look at that, because it's not particularly attractive . But we have to look at it in order to move on, to engage with where we are, to reflect on what we are and alter what might happen.
PK: Is there a cure? Do they know what the cause is?
SM: It's like AA. They take certain steps. There are lots of different causes to it like with alcohol addiction. Why do people drink? We don't know. It often has something to do with their past it could be hereditary or whatever . What do we know? A lot of people have sex addiction because they don't understand it. They think they're just having a good time. An addiction is when something takes control of your life. That's it. And then it can ruin it.
PK: Do you think the film could be construed as anti-sex?
SM: No. I mean drugs are meant to be good, or are meant to be fun. There are scenes in this movie where sex can be seen as having fun. Like when Michael takes a girl from the bar and has sex with her outside . He comes back with a swagger when and obviously has had a pleasant evening. His attempt to make love with Marianne [a woman at work whom he asks out on a date] which of course collapses because he can't follow through. It's the most erotic moment in the movie because he's actually sharing, he's communicating with the lovemaking. There's a give and take. As apart from just taking, which he does in other situations. It was the most erotic scene for me anyway. When there is communication within sex.
PK: Do you think porn on line should be restricted?
SM: No, I'm not interested in censorship at all. But at the same time, how you manage it, I don't know. It's a difficult question to answer. As I said, I don't disagree with NC- 17.
Going back to the research into Brandon's persona, did you find that most sex addicts you spoke to where normal nine-to-five kind of guys?
Well, again, yes, they were very normal, and the ones who paid for therapy maybe had a bit more money than some of the others. There're all kinds of people who suffer from that addiction in all kinds of shapes and forms. But just to focus on, um… we met a few guys that were young and had disposable incomes. That's the sort of people we were looking for, the people that we knew we could be faithful to when it came to telling their story.
Shame is a snapshot of Brandon's life, we don't see the start or the end point of his journey.
That's exactly it, we come into it without a head or a tail. It's a moment, we don't know him before and we don't know what will happen to him after. When we present this situation with Sissy and Brandon we don't explain the past, and the reason I did that was because I didn't want it to be familiar. Everyone when they go to the cinema brings their luggage and their baggage into the theatre and they can gauge what could have happened. It's up the audience to make their own mind up, I'm not going to spin some long, tiresome yarn for their sake. Also , I didn't want it to be an excuse for what Brandon is doing.
Sex addiction is regarded as taboo, whereas alcoholism, smoking addition, etc, have been stripped of much of the stigma surrounding them. Why do you think sex addiction is not as commonly depicted in popular culture?
Look, you can go back 50 years, before Billy Wilder's The Lost Weekend, and people didn't even talk about it then. It's being taken seriously now. It's the same with sex addiction. When I first heard about it I laughed, but when you realise that in order to get through a day this person has to relieve themselves 10 or so times it ceases to become funny. Sex is everywhere so it seems to be okay, and if you've got a healthy sex life then it's fantastic, but when sex becomes something that you need to get you through a day it becomes dangerously unhealthy.
Is Shame social observation?
It's not in the sense that I'm not making a comment, it's just the reality that's out there. It's got nothing to do with me waving red flag, it's just how it is. I have no judgment on it, I'm just reflecting reality. I'm not interested in making a statement. I'm an immoral person who leans into the moral spectrum every now and then. What artists have done since the beginning of time is look at ourselves and put ourselves on canvasses or in sculptures or in the cinema… Are these answers okay, by the way, I have a tendancy to ramble.
Not at all, this is great. Just thinking about your career from a wider perspective now… Was there a moment before Hunger when you decided you wanted to focus on making films?
No. The subject matter tells me what to do. The next one might want me to make a sculpture, it might want me to do a print. The subject matter is the arse for the film, not the other way around. I want to make a feature film, doesn't mean anything. Bobby Sands was crying out for a narrative, a feature film, same with sex addiction, but other times it doesn't work that way. I did a film about Coltan which is the mineral that you find in everyone's mobile phones, about five years ago, but it doesn't matter. It's all about the content, not the form. The content provides the form.
Inevitably with a film that handles such delicate subject material you're going to get labels like 'controversial' and 'brave'. How do you respond to that?
I don't really care to be honest with you. I don't really care. It is what it is, I'm not reactionary; I'm not trying to stir the pot. I'm just trying to make films that have a reason to be made.
Do you make your art for yourself?
No, no, I'm not that selfish. It's not about me it's about we. I've collaborated with a lot of people to make this film, and film is an immensely collaborative process. It was important to make Shame. Full stop.
Our tagline is 'truth and movies', what's the single greatest truth you discovered while making these two features?
Be nice to people and you're film will turn out better. It sounds corny but it's true, the truth is that people in general are really nice and I believe that everyone should be respected. That's the truth.
You clearly value the efforts of others.
Yes, but I'm a dictator. I'm an extraordinary, ruthless dictator, but I'm not stupid. As any good leader will say, you have to recognise other people's talents in order to make your work better. Abi Morgan and Shaun Bobbit, who I've worked with for 11 years, Joe Walker, the editor, Ian Canning, the producer, Michael Fassbender and Carey Mulligan… these are all extremely talented people, you have the cream of the crop. But they stimulating, they need someone who will arose and inspire them; allow their talents to come to the fore. That's what being a leader is about; inspiring those around you. To inspire a performance, to inspire a cameraman, to inspire the catering to make nice food for us. It starts from the ground up. If the food's shit on set it's disastrous. Look after the chef and you'll look after your movie.
You mean in terms of the character?
Sure, but there are expectations as well that she had and she's told me that it was tough in terms of the research that was involved with Sissy. She appreciated it because we went on a real journey together with Sissy. You know, I know Sissy, you know Sissy, everyone out there knows Sissy, it's someone that's very needy and uncompromising, very demanding on you. You love that person but sometimes you can't take that person. That person can be extraordinarily exhilarating sometimes but other times they're just too much. She's an extreme, but she's universal. Most of us get through life making compromises, but Sissy never compromises and because of that she'll get hurt more. We did a lot of talking through that, a lot of talking.
Do you feel like a part of the British film industry now?
I'm not a part of any British nothing. I'm me. End of story. I'm not interested in nationalism, never was. The British film industry, being a part of it, doesn't mean a thing to me.
We know nothing about Brandon and Sissy's background. Was it important that you leave the past out?
SM : I wanted to make it familiar to us but also mysterious. It had to be familiar but still left open about what could have possibly happened. I wanted that to be very involving for the audience. Sometimes you don't need a head or a tail, just a torso and that's it. You do the math.
You realize there will be plenty of controversy because of the film's look at extreme sex. It's polarizing -- people seem to love it or hate it.
SM : Oh, good! If you make a film everyone loves, you raise the question "What the hell am I doing?" If people do like it or don't, it's good. I hope they're passionate both ways.
The pacing is interesting.
SM : It happens very fast. We get through to the addiction, and then it gets out of the way. The lovemaking scene -- the idea and the content -- demand that form. Certain shots demand to be looked at longer; it's about having the audience watch. They always talk about long, too long, not long enough, long, long, long, long. It's just too long, but, no, it's not. In the lovemaking scene, he's tender and sexual -- beautiful in a way, sensual.
You see him trying to make love, but he fails, so then it's f*cking. Anything with an emotional involvement or risk at all is still just f*cking around. He abandoned the attempt to make a connection, the conversation of a first date, the awkwardness of it. Finally, he runs away.
McQueen: And in this story, the motivations are clear. Why does he get beaten up in the club? He needs to feel something. He doesnít like himself, so heís abusing himself .
You do see that Brandon is trying, and he never does anything inherently bad. Did you and Michael always see him as a genuinely good person?
He's not a bad guy, at all. He's just in a situation where his addiction…he's terrible to his sister, in a way, but we're all terrible to our siblings in one way. What Cissy does is bring the past to the present, and he doesn't want to have anything to do with. He is a good guy, totally. He's like you and me; he's trying. We're not all angels.
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