(cursory · · Clumsy translated)
RA: Can you Talk about how you changed from a New York songwriter to a Hollywood playwright?
JS: I really think my songwriting is good. I have made many records. It feels like after climbing a mountain, I want to try something else. At that time, our couple had a TV. There is a series on TV. The film is one hour long. One episode was produced by Robert Montgomery. It’s very interesting, with ads every fifteen minutes. The shot is very good. I think I can do this kind of thing. I thought of some things that happened to my relatives that I have always been scared of. It has to do with an old lady who has never been in the attic. But how can I write it so that my aunts and cousins can't see that I wrote it? I don't want to make my family headlines because of this. So in the end, the story is written as a pair of widows and widowers falling in love, everything goes well, but the man’s daughter opposes. She locked herself upstairs and did not want to come out. This is a TV script. I showed it to my agent. We sold it to Carlo Ponti two weeks later. I hope Anna Melanie will play it. After watching it, Ponti said he liked it very much. But he thinks his wife Sophia Loren (who has just signed a four-year contract with Paramount) may be more suitable. Because this character is too kind to Melanie. Later it was made into the movie "Black Orchid".
This script gave my Hollywood agent an opportunity to sign with Twentieth Century Fox. Seven years, two copies a year. I don't remember how much it was paid at that time, but it was very impressive. Since the wife was pregnant at the time, we had to move to Los Angeles. Everything is going smooth. I continue to write songs, more works than when I was a career. Many people perform my work in the bar. I like that feeling. But after becoming a screenwriter, he did not stop songwriting. Later, he wrote TV scripts. After I finished writing, I sold it to CBS’s show "Theatre 90". That is the best play you can participate in. Live broadcast for an hour and a half. That experience is really great. With this play, I won a very important award, and I began to feel that my future achievements might exceed my original expectations.
After that, I decided to sign with the biggest brokerage company there. They have been talking to me privately. I shouldn't have done that because I have a contract. But they did it anyway. So I gave them a list of ten directors I am eager to collaborate with. My first movie was a success. Everyone thought I was going to take the next one. So I took a risk. Both of us thought we might “tighten the belts”. If it doesn't work, I will go back to New York to write a song. In any case, I quit my previous brokerage company and signed with MCA. Give them that list. I think the directors on the list can help me improve my professional level.
RA: Is Hitchcock on the list?
JS: Yes. There are Hitchcock and some others. Some of them wanted to shoot something I didn't like, so I turned it off. But it was William Wheeler who really disappointed me. He told me that he was going to make a new film "Double Grudge" adapted from Lilian Heilman. The play was adapted as "The Three of Nafang" in the 1930s. He said: "We'll start shooting as soon as we write it." I said, "It feels good. It must be good to adapt a classic award-winning stage play." I asked him why Heilmann didn't do it himself. He said that she was too busy or unwilling to do it. But she "can help you complete it." I imagined at the time that Hellmann, the most troublesome woman in the world, should sit next to him when writing the script? That's weird. So I called and told my agent that I would not pick up movies anymore.
Hitchcock called shortly afterwards and said that his office would send me a book. Let me read it and meet him on Tuesday morning. I read it and found it very interesting. The story is about the boy and his mother. These roles interest me very much. Especially I am still studying these things. Then I turned to the end of the book and found that my mother was a dead person, and it was from beginning to end. I have a feeling that this book is unlikely to be made into a movie. Because how do you shoot a scene of a man and his dead mother? Unless you tell the audience early as the prerequisite of the film, but then, the end loses its shock. So I suddenly had an idea. The movie should revolve around the girl who only appears in the first two sections of the novel. She checked into the motel and was brutally killed in the shower. The book originally said, "...someone came in and she screamed. That person stopped the screaming with a knife and chopped off her head." I knew that this would not be written in the script of the movie. The head was chopped off? Ha, you know, it was 1959!
So I met with Mr. Hitchcock. He is very kind. I didn't want to sit down and just chat. So I told him, "Mr. Hitchcock, can I make some comments on how to make this movie?" He said, "Of course," and leaned back. So I threw out the entire opening episode (like you see in the movie). I said, "The film started with a girl and her boyfriend from an out-of-state tryst. It was a cheap hotel." I didn't know I was grabbing his attention. The "tryst" passage seemed to attract him. Although he was not sure he had heard the word, he didn't need to explain, he knew what it meant. Then I talked about the whole story. Including her journey to find her boyfriend with the stolen money. Besides, she is a little crazy. Because stealing forty thousand dollars will not help her and her boyfriend's troubles at all. I really think this character doesn't know what he is doing and what the consequences will be. It was an instant crazy behavior. And this concept is often used in my later works. "We are all a little crazy sometimes." So from the beginning a tension was created, especially for Janet Lee. I once said to her, "The camera enters the house from the window, until the shower is killed, you are always in the camera." She liked it very much. I think she showed that kind of tension just right. Her performance was amazing.
Hitchcock really wanted me to cooperate with him for some reason. He hopes that I will be there when meeting with makeup artists, scene designers, and photographers. I don't know if movie directors do this, but it really benefits me a lot. I learned a lot from it. Really, there will not be a few people in that era who can teach you so much.
RA: Did you know that James Cavanagh also wrote a draft script before you were hired?
JS: No. One of the screenwriter principles is that when there is a previous version, you must tell the successor. But he never mentioned it, nor did my agent mention it. Later during the shooting, someone told me, "Have you read another draft?" I said, "No," the expression on his face seemed to be, "I'm sorry, I shouldn't mention it." But it doesn't matter, I don't care. I don't know there is another version. I think it may have been written by Robert Bullock. But I didn't know it was Cavanagh.
RA: The genius inspiration in your script is to subvert the scene in the novel. In the beginning of the novel, Norman and his mother are introduced, but Marion only appears in the second chapter, and then she enters the motel and is killed. And you subvert it, and Marion becomes the center of the narrative!
JS: Before you know Norman, I need a way to grab the audience. Let the audience pay attention to Marion. I mean, when the police stopped her, the audience had to be nervous too. It seems that she stole the money, but you want her to escape. I think that if you can make the audience like her, it will count as a grievance: because the victim has never been a central role in a murder case. The focus of the case always revolves around "Who did it?" The novel always focuses on suspects, witnesses, or criminals, while victims are always thrown aside. As if no one wants to see them. I just let the audience watch her this time and surround her completely. I think it works pretty well.
RA: There is one more thing that interests me. Many people who study Hitchcock actually study things from playwrights, including you, and Hitchcock himself. For example, when she enters the hotel, some parts are not in the book. One of them is very prominent, and many people associate it with this film as a feature: the image of a policeman that appeared when she parked her car on the side of the road.
JS: Not in the book.
RA: Did you create it? Or Hitchcock? Or is it the result of the exchange between the two of you?
JS: I outlined the entire beginning part, and he liked it better. I have been communicating and discussing with him while creating. I think every scene is in his head. That is the style of his director. When we first communicated, I used to think that the highway patrol should be a handsome guy. He saw a pretty girl parking alone by the roadside (in that era, we said "girl" instead of "woman") and decided to go up and chat. . So this is a provocative paragraph. But Hitchcock said, "I don't know if this should be the case." He thought he had established a relationship with her boyfriend, stole the money and fled, and was almost caught by his boss. He likes all these things. But "Some people are attracted to her? This kind of story didn't catch me." I responded, "So what if it was replaced by a threat?"... I like the plot and the shooting method. I think the audience wants her to escape. No one among them would say, "Okay! Let her go to jail!" It was more like "Wait, wait, don't catch her!"
RA: In Vancent's version, the policeman said, "The weather is good." Is this you or Vancent added?
JS: Not in the script. Because in principle he didn't want to make any changes.
RA: There is a scene in the opening paragraph which is very important for the whole film. It was Marion who heard the boss talking in the car and discovered that the money had been stolen. I think film critics are very interested in this. Because it is related to a later episode. That is, the audience hears Norman's mother's voice, echo. Makes a certain connection between Marion and Norman. Do you have any ideas here too? Is it something like intuition?
JS: No. I think this is a way of showing what she is thinking. Because throughout the journey, it is important to know what she thinks. Hitchcock's first request was, "We don't flash back here. Don't switch back." So I said, maybe I don't have to see it, but let her think about it. So I added a voice-over. Show what she is thinking. Everything is told to us through her: what everyone is doing when she does not go to work on Monday. What does her sister do. Then take the plot of her arrival at the hotel (the filming has been completed before). I said, "Let her hear what they said." So we finished this shot with a voice-over. Hitchcock is very good at working with others. If he doesn't like my way of thinking, he will think about it seriously. Go write it and show it to me. There is never a feeling of "I ask you". So I wrote this episode, and he liked it and adopted it. And if he doesn't like it, I know it will definitely be deleted. It's not self-boasting. Many of my ideas for this film are realized in this way, not just to complete the dialogue creation. There is a feeling, as if Hitchcock is not the boss, but I control the movie together with him.
RA: What I like is her thoughts of hearing voices. She imagined what happened, these things were in her mind. And we have also seen that they may actually happen. In the following paragraphs, we hear the voice of Norman's mother. Because we heard a real voice in someone’s head before, it prompted us to think that Norman’s mother was also a real person. This is a kind of ambiguity constructed between subjective and objective. It makes Norman's mother's voice more believable.
JS: I never thought about it that way.
RA: This is a consistency in the ambiguity between imaginary and real existence, between the inner and the outer, between the character and the world.
JS: But I don’t think the audience will think that Marion is imagining Norman Mother's voice.
RA: Of course, she heard the voice. The voice was made by Norman. But the film tries to convince us that it is the mother who is talking. It was not a normal sound, but an echo. Just like Marion heard when driving earlier.
JS: Well, I never thought of connecting the two.
RA: I like another scene—a conversation in the living room. You extract something from the plot of the novel, and these things are obviously not conveyed through dialogue. Norman led Mary into the living room, and they sat down to eat. My question relates to the scene as well as the film as a whole. It is the motif of birds. Because Hitchcock used it in his next film "The Birds". The name of the character in the novel is related to the bird. Norman Bates (Bates=Baits), Mary Encree (Crane is a crane), Sam Rumus. There is no mention of birds elsewhere. Norman also made a specimen but a squirrel, not a bird. But the bird becomes very important in the film, and it doesn't seem to be a scene scheduling technique. It also appears in the script. And at the beginning of this scene you wrote an interesting dialogue: Norman said, "You eat like a bird." How is the whole scene of the film designed? Do you remember how you discussed it with Hitchcock?
JS: I never discussed this scene. All Hitchcock needs is what the scene will be like, and whether the audience will react in the way he wants, etc. When I finished this scene, I used birds because Norman loved to make specimens, and I loved animals but not birds. So I thought, if you want to make a specimen, just make a bird. Although they are beautiful, I don't want them to fly around in front of me. And I didn't write the script of "The Flock of Birds" because of the birds. They scare me. When I told Hitchcock about my thoughts, he said, "What's the problem?" I replied, "It's a rejection of birds." I still want them to stay outdoors. Once I came home from vacation, I saw that it was about to rain and the house was a bit boring. I opened the bedroom door, but forgot that the partition was not closed. As a result, the bird flew in. I was almost crazy at the time. "Get out! Get out!" I later discovered that many things were related to superstition. There is a ridiculous superstition: if a bird flies into your room, someone will die or something.
RA: Do you know that Hitchcock is as troubled or fearful of birds as you do?
JS: I don't know. He never mentioned it. I never thought about it. Because I don’t understand if he doesn’t like birds, why bother to shoot "The Birds"? (Laughter)
RA: When I was reading your script, I had a problem. There is no dialogue in many passages of the film. Especially after the murder, no one spoke. We only saw Norman cleaning the room. In the script, you give a detailed description of the plot. Did these descriptions come from the results of discussions between you and Hitchcock about how the filming was taken? How did they come about? Some things are in the script, and some are not. For example, the amazing camera moving after the murder in the bathroom. The water flows into the drain hole and the camera turns to Marion's eyes, there is nothing. But there are many other mirror details. I just want to know how they are produced?
JS: What I discussed with Hitchcock is that it takes time. The character that the audience had been paying attention to throughout the first part of the film was suddenly cut off because of her sudden death. Now how to do? I think it is necessary for the audience to start paying attention to Norman. One way to achieve this is to try to make Norman worthy of sympathy. After all, Norman Bates is completely different from Donny Hopkins in the book.
RA: There is a fat drunkard in the book.
JS: Yes. Therefore, he must be made a more sympathetic and lovely young man. He must clean up the mess after his mother cruelly murdered the girl. Very reasonable. First of all, try to keep the audience from suspecting that Norman is the murderer, or any idea that his mother is not the murderer. Secondly, give you enough time to think deeply: He may be one of us. We may also have a lunatic mother, let us clean up the mess after the murder. Because we don't want her to be arrested, and we don't want her to be in a lunatic asylum. Cleaning up blood stains and rooms, throwing away clothes and evidence of crimes left by his mother became the most sympathetic things. I think this paragraph is too long in the script, it may be reduced. I am not saying that I want to reduce it, but that Hitchcock thinks it is too long and will reduce it. But he didn't. He liked the whole paragraph. It's really a wonderful scene. For me, the audience experienced Marion and then moved to Norman. The extent of the change even surprised me. When the car sank into the swamp, it came to a halt. When it continues to sink, the audience's tension is released. I think: Not long ago, the audience was still frustrated that Marion might be caught. And now, they are thinking, okay! it is good! The car sank! We like this boy. It feels good to sink.
RA: Is it black humor?
JS: Well, it should be an audience manipulation. I think this film is the most manipulative movie I have ever seen. Most of Hitchcock's films are operating audiences. Because he is most concerned about the audience. What do you want the audience to think? When I wrote the dialogue, I was thinking about how to shape this man and at the same time trying to figure out the audience. Later, I have always used this to create. The core of my creation is the audience. This is the best lesson I have learned.
RA: What are the roles of Sam and Lina? They are also very interesting. Lina is Marion's stand-in. I remember where I saw someone discuss whether she had some kind of romantic relationship with Sam?
JS: When I first heard about it, I thought it was absurd. This issue has never been discussed.
Ra: Why is it absurd? Because of disagreements with Hitchcock?
JS: I never thought of this. When you lost a loved one and fell in love with her boyfriend? I cannot agree with this.
(Editor’s note: But Stephen Robello quoted the lines from Stephen’s original script in Chapter 5 of his book Shooting Hitchcock and the Terror, which vaguely conveyed a certain intimacy.)
RA: Before leaving the topic of "The Cry", I want to know when you joined the crew for the first time, read a novel, and realized that this is a movie that Hitchcock hopes to make. At that time he had just filmed "North by Northwest". Despite the irony, he was still a romantic director in the 1950s. When you realized that Hitchcock was interested in this novel that even Leather Robertson felt a little too much, what did you think?
JS: Everyone said he can't shoot. Paramount didn't even want to invest in the release of this film. At the time I thought this film was a bit bad, but maybe Hitchcock could make it different? To be honest, I am somewhat disappointed. At the first meeting, he said, "Have you heard of American International Pictures before? They have been investing in low-cost films and making a lot of money. I now think what will happen if we make one too?" I think he Intentionally used "we". What he meant: Let Hitchcock make a movie that costs less than 1 million yuan to see what happens. My agent was pale at the time. I don't know why this film can become a Hitchcock type movie. Among his movies I have seen, "The Cry" is not Hitchcock at all!
RA: What did you learn from Hitchcock?
JS: Almost everything. This is why he appears on my list. But he said he wanted to make a movie that cost less than $1 million! I am fully prepared for low pay. But still don't know how low the success or failure is. Later, I learned that it was only 800,000 US dollars. But his company spent $1 million to tell the audience how to watch the movie. This is the greatest sales case I have ever seen. But I was still a bit disappointed, thinking that something was missing. Even when I look back at the noir film "Mystery", it doesn't look like "Scary". Hitchcock told me, "Those who I have always followed their suggestions told me not to make this movie." But he did. He seems to be quite sure. I think I am part of the world in his eyes, so he decided to give me this job. Because he felt that those who had worked with him in the past couldn't do it.
RA: He was obsessed with Demon Jack when he was young. And in the story of "Scary" you can find some of the shadows of his early movies before he became famous.
JS: He always shoots big color investment videos. Because he can use the big stars with box office guarantees like Gary Grant and Grace Kelly. No star would reject him at the time. This has become a legend. Indeed, I have not encountered anyone rejecting him. No one has ever told me who would.
RA: Although Gary Grant has always asked for a high price in Hitchcock movies, Hitchcock said he would not use him anymore.
JS: Really? It was after "North by Northwest", and I was working with Hitchcock again in "Brilliant Thieves". When I finished writing the draft, he said no more. Because Grace Kelly changed his mind.
RA: Did he show Kelly your draft?
JS: No. I don't think he did that. She called and said that she and her husband, the Prince of Monaco, already had enough money. However, after filming "Scary", I have a feeling that Hitchcock doesn't seem to need big stars anymore. Although, later also worked with Paul Newman.
RA: This is because the structure of the film industry changed at that time. The old power of film companies collapsed, and the power of celebrities rose. But I speculate that Hitchcock thinks that the most important person in the movie should be him, not the stars.
JS: To some extent, "Scary" did what he had never done before. That is, without the help of stars.
RA: I want to talk a little bit about the Vancent version of "Scary", because there has been a lot of talk about it recently. How did this movie come about? What is the communication between you and the director? What do you think he wants to achieve? "
JS:! Suicide (Laughter) He called me and said he wanted to remake" Psycho ", and the word not to fall remake I did not know he meant all frame remake scene designs. It was the same, and the clothes were the same. It was a little weird at the time. I sat there looking at him and thought to myself: I admire this man’s work. Later I asked him why he wanted to make a Hitchcock movie. "What I hope is Fan Sente photographed it," he said, "I have had this dream since I was a kid. The nomination for "Mind Catcher" gave me such an ability. "
I began to think that he might want to make some changes. But I didn't realize it was not until I started shooting. He really didn't want me to make any changes to the script. However, there is a plot that is very unreasonable. It's the plot of stealing money. I really don’t think there is still a woman willing to steal forty thousand dollars at the risk of jeopardizing careers and relationships. Forty million is almost the same! I don't know any man who can spend forty thousand dollars to buy a house for his daughter. Vancent said: I think there needs to be changed. He didn't want detectives to call. I mean, you seem to be working with a control freak, and he has only one idea: to remake this film in color. Later, after the actual shooting work, I found that this person is sometimes forgiving, sometimes forced. Because I may have taken the 30th episode of what I watched, the actor is still in the wrong position. It's a little weird anyway. I like him and I like the producer. The relationship is very harmonious. Except a little! That is, I really don't know what he is doing.
RA: One thing has changed. It is role shaping. Although the lines are the same, the actor's performance has changed. I want to know if he has discussed with you. It seems that your script should give some suggestions that the actors feel confident.
JS: I think Anne Hatch is the biggest mistake I have ever seen. I like her "Wag a Tail Dog". But she shaped Marion as if she didn't care about the money at all. She can earn it by walking around in the street. She acts like a prostitute. When Janet Lee said, "I'll lick the stamps," it was touching. When Annie Hatch said this, it seemed that she was not talking about stamps. (Laughter)
RA: Let's take a look at Vancent's version of the living room paragraph. In Hitchcock's version, Marion is somewhat motherly and compassionate. And Annie Hatch’s performance is just like what we have seen, and the reaction to Norman Bates is completely different. The most obvious difference to me is the strange change in Vancent's style. The importance of background is greatly diminished. Secondly, Anne Hatch's performance was not enough. She looked very blunt and indifferent. It seems that Norman is a lunatic. Although speaking the same lines, the effect is far inferior to Janet Lee's version. The motherhood of the characters in your script is completely lost.
JS: I don't think that with this characterization, when Mary says "thank you", you will really know that talking to the other person will remind her of the absurd things she has done. She is too cold. Nothing seems to affect her. In Hitchcock's movie, Lee sits there, in a bad situation, thinking that he doesn't need to listen to what the man said. So there is no way to provide opinions or suggestions in the conversation, because doing so may make things worse.
RA: Does Vancent want to make Marion more weird and make the character more modern?
JS: He doesn't want to adapt anything. Including roles. So when I watched their shooting, I wondered, who is directing and is he watching? Marion buys a car for a scene. She walked around with a parasol. After reading it, I thought, what does it mean? Anna's skin was white, and the sun was vicious that day. She doesn't want to sunburn her skin. So someone gave her an umbrella. I guess there are people who make tailor-made clothes for her. So, you know, this movie is like a musical version of "Terror". that's terrible. I immediately realized that I would not be involved. And Vancent let me come to the scene only because I was related to the old version.
RA: Did you stay on the shooting scene for a long time?
JS: No. The point is not the length of time. But it felt awkward at the time.
……
[Audience Questions]
Q: Have you discussed the music of the film with Bernard Herman?
A: He only comes to the office occasionally. What impressed me the most was that he told me to use only strings for the soundtrack. I think that is really a unique and brilliant idea. When I watched this movie for the first time, I was really intimidated. 30% of the film's success is due to the soundtrack.
Q: Do you remember the episodes that were deleted?
A: I really don't remember having a dispute. I know how to deal with Hitchcock. If the film is too long, the effect of expression must be bad. In fact, when I gave him the first draft in three weeks, he took it home, and the next day he came back and said to me, "Irma loves it." And this is actually his own. view. I used a pencil to mark out the dialogue paragraphs that he could delete if needed. But what's interesting is that he took all the photos intact. I don't remember any of those things were deleted.
Q: One of Vancent's version is wonderful. The camera shakes from the swamp, and the whole environment comes into view. Houses and motels become part of the original landscape and swamp. There is a feeling of returning everything. Was it you or Vancent added it?
A: (Surprised) It's him. Although he didn't want any changes.
Q: It is really interesting to listen to your memories of the past forty years. Do you think there is room for improvement?
A: For so many years, the only valuable criticism I have heard is that of a psychologist. It really disappointed the audience. I told Vancent that it's better to walk into the room, and the psychologist is talking with Norman Bates. Don't use the original plot. I think this idea is good. Because now I just happen to hear an actor (he was recommended to the crew, unfortunately) doing a court-like monologue. Vancent initially thought it was a good idea. But the next day he told me that he didn't want to make changes, that would be bad. The people at Universal were worried about Vince following his mother's talk. I thought at the time, why are you still making this movie? What the hell is it for? Is it afraid that the audience thinks Vince is gay, or what? "We want to use this voice. Now it's just another character talking." Vancent didn't want to change anyway.
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