following is an interview in the booklet "Breaking the Waves" published by Standard Collection, originally included in "Von Trier on Von Trier" published by Stig Björkman in 1999. The English version was translated by Neil Smith.
"Breaking the Waves" took five years to produce and cost 42 million kronor. Where did you think of this idea in the first place?
I prefer extreme ideas, and I want to make a movie about "kindness". When I was a kid, I read a children's book called "Conscience". I clearly remember that this book made me very happy. This is a picture book about a little girl going to the forest with bread or something in her pocket. But at the end, when she walked through the forest, she was naked and there was nothing left. The last sentence in the book is-"But at least I'm okay," said Conscience. It seems that this expresses the extreme situation of the martyrs. I read it several times, although my father thought it was totally rubbish. The story of "Broken Waves" may come from this. Beth in the movie is "Conscience". I also want to make a movie on religious themes, a movie about miracles. At the same time, I also want to make a completely naturalistic movie.
As the years grew, the story changed a lot. At first, I wanted to shoot on the west coast of Jutland, then I wanted to go to Norway, then I wanted to go to Ostend in Belgium, then Ireland, and finally decided to shoot in Scotland. Many movies were shot on the Isle of Skye, which may not be a coincidence. There were also many painters and writers in Britain during the Roman rule in the 19th century. In those years, I spent a lot of effort on the script of "Breaking the Waves". I'm a bit like Dreyer, a little bit simpler and refined. And then, just before we started shooting, I lost my enthusiasm for it. It took so long to prepare this film, and I am a little tired of it.
I can understand. It can become difficult to persist in investing in a project for a long time. During that time you always have new ideas for making movies.
Yes, there is also the risk of adding new materials. If you want to make this project progress, it may not always be a good idea. You risk losing everything you originally had, forgetting everything you wanted to interpret when you started. But it did take a long time to fight for investment in "Bro Lang".
That's weird, isn't it, because it feels like "Broken Waves" is easier to attract investment than your other movies.
Yes, there is a funny story. We got the script investment somewhere, I think it is some kind of "Europe Script Fund" (Europe Script Fund). There is an application for a lecturer to read the script aloud, and then there will be many criticisms. So in order to maintain their status, they designed a computer program to evaluate the ten scripts given to them. The computer can help them calculate the degree of connection between the artistic and commercial aspects of a project. "Broken Waves" got the highest score! very funny. It must have all the right ingredients: sailors, beauties, romantic scenery-all computers love!
The techniques used in the movie-handheld photography and CinemaScope format-were you decided at the same time when you were conceiving the story?
No, that came from my experience in filming "The Kingdom". In this movie, there are the same cliché elements as "Hospital Storm". This makes me think it's important to shoot it as real as possible. More documentary style. If I shoot "Breaking the Waves" with conventional techniques, I think it must be unbearable.
I think that to make a project operational, it is important to determine a specific style. Usually, you choose a style for the movie that emphasizes the story. But we did the opposite. We chose a style that contradicted the story and gave it the weakest possible focus.
Yes, if you treat "Broken Waves" too softly, it may be considered too romantic or melodramatic.
The movie could have been too disgusting. It could be unbearable. What we do is choose a style and put it on the story as a filter. It's like you pay to watch a movie and the TV decodes the signal. Here we coded the movie, and the audience needs to decode it. The documentary style I used in the movie actually dissolved and contradicted the documentary. It means that we accept everything that is told to us. At least that is my opinion. It's a bit theoretical. Then we manipulate the image electronically. We convert the film to video, correct the colors, and then convert it back to film.
As in "Medea", you first shoot with video tape, then turn it into film, and then copy it to the video tape.
No, when shooting directly from a TV monitor, it should be said to be the basic process. In "Hospital Storm", the transcription process is more advanced. It was more refined in "Broken Waves". It is fun to convert Panavision to video and back to film. Maybe this is too fascinating... Among them, there are fully digital panoramic shots that introduce different parts of the film.
It also reminds them of classic British novels, which have chapter names to indicate the content of each part.
I collaborated on these images with the Danish artist Per Kirkeby, whose style is based on romantic paintings. He is an expert in this field, and our results are very interesting. Romantic painting has many ways of expression. There are paintings that people hang on the walls, and there are more pure works in galleries. Our picture may be more abstract than what I originally conceived.
In 1995, you published the Dogme 95 manifesto, with the goal of "resisting certain tendencies of today's film art." The manifesto attacked false movies and used a series of rules to promote naturalistic movies, such as on-site shooting, handheld photography, natural light, and direct radio. The last rule is that the director does not sign. In addition to the high budget of the movie, "Broken Waves" very much follows the manifesto.
Yes, really lucky... but the declaration goes a step further, which is very important to me, because I want to make a movie according to the rules. As you can see, "Broken Waves" does not completely follow the rules. I can't help but fix the color and technical appearance of the film. Maybe I shouldn't do this if I want to be faithful to my theory. But I feel the need to limit myself is the spirit that created this manifesto.
You also broke the unsigned rule. "Broken Waves" is undoubtedly a "Larth von Trier". The French writer Paul Valéry once said: "The regression of art begins with signatures." In other words, a work will be evaluated because of its creator. Do you think this is positive or negative?
I think it is positive. I have no problem with this. For example, when I was young, I liked David Bowie. He tried to construct a kind of mysticism around himself. This is as important as his music. If Bowie didn't need his own signature when composing music, he might have learned to do other things. I don't think that in the relationship between the artist and the audience, it is important not to recognize the author. The important thing is the process of the creation of the work.
The declaration is entirely theoretical. But at the same time, theory is more important than the individual. That is what I want to express. For some reason, the identity of the director always appears. It became obvious who directed a certain Dougma 95 film.
Of course, I think that no matter whether their characteristics are obvious or not, most serious filmmakers will always distinguish them easily.
Yes, I always feel that it is very important to tell if it is a movie I made just by watching it.
What do you think is special about your characteristics? What in the movie can make us discover that it is your work?
This may sound too pretentious, but I don’t know why I want people to discover that every image contains ideas. It may sound too arrogant, or it may not be accurate. But I think that every video and every editing has been carefully thought out. No coincidence at all.
"Bro Lang" has a strong religious background. What made you include these in the movie?
Maybe because I believe in religion. I am a Catholic, but I don't pray to Catholicism. I feel the need to belong to the faith community because my parents are faithful atheists. When I was young, I treated religion lightly. When you are young, you may be attracted to more extreme religions. Maybe disappear in Tibet, or seek the strictest doctrines, complete abstinence or something.
I think I now have a "Dreyer" perspective on religion. Dreyer's view of religion is above all humanitarian. He also explores religion in all his works. The situation in "Broken Waves" is that religion is attacked, not God.
In the movie, religion is described as a power structure. The mechanism of power and its problems are what you discussed in the previous works.
My purpose is never to criticize a certain belief. I am not interested at all. This is too simple, not a question I want to cover. Cultivating a universal view is like fishing in shallow water. In many ways, I can understand people who are plagued by mental problems in an extreme way. But I don’t want to. If you want to create a melodrama, you have to include certain obstacles. I found that religion is a suitable barrier.
Beth's dialogue with God is very direct and intimate, giving the voice a pious tone.
Beth is also a manifestation of religion. Religion is her foundation, and she accepts its conditions without question. In the funeral scene at the beginning of the movie, the priest condemned the deceased to be eternally cursed in hell, which Beth thought was completely normal. She was totally uneasy. But on the other hand, we will be uneasy. Beth is opposed to many power structures, such as the intervention of hospitals and doctors. She also took a certain position based on her inner kindness.
To a large extent, "Breaking the Waves" is made by actors. Do you think your attitude towards actors has changed during the filming process?
It can be said that there is. But I also used different techniques. According to the mutual trust of the director and the actor, it is actually a classic technique. Maybe I am closer to the actors in this film. But I finally learned it too! In previous movies, I deliberately didn't want to get too close to the actors.
How did you find Emily Watson to play Beth? She performed very well, although she was just a novice at the time.
One of the problems with finding investment in production is that our protagonist does not have any big names. We found out early on and couldn't find the big names we wanted to participate in. They are all afraid of the characters inside.
Is it because of sex scenes?
Probably because of the whole story. This is a strange mixture of religion, sex, and myths. The well-known actors we approached did not want to take a career risk. For example, Helena Bonham Carter quit at the last minute. So I think it's important to find actors who really want to participate. I think it can be seen that the actor we selected last participated in the show wholeheartedly.
We auditioned several actors for the role of Beth. Then I watched the audition tape with Benter (von Trier’s collaborator) and she thought it was obvious that Emily Watson should get this role. I was also fascinated by Emily's performance, but it was mainly her enthusiasm that infected me. I remember Emily was the only one to audition without makeup, she even came barefoot! There is a Jesus-like quality in her that attracts me.
Emily has never made a movie before, which means she relies more on me as the director. Our cooperation is completely easy. What's interesting is that the scene where Emily appeared, I chose the last time, and it was exactly the same. With Caitlin Kartridge, I almost always choose the first time. The difference lies in their different ways of performing. We used a lot of impromptu performances, regardless of the connection, gave the actors more freedom. Caitlin is a more experienced actor, and the intensity of her performance decreases every time she shoots. As for Emily, if I give her more accurate guidance, her performance will be more refined.
As for the actor, how did you choose?
As the actor, I was thinking of Gerard Depardieu who worked with in "Europa". I met him in Paris, but he is too busy at work and is not too interested in this role. When I started writing the script, the character was more like Depardieu. But the character developed in a different direction and became too old for Depardieu.
Later, Strand Skarsgard became the natural choice. He also has physiological traits suitable for the role. And he is excellent. He is also a very good person. If there is a suitable role, I might always think of him.
Where is Caitlin Cartridge? I know this character was originally written for Barbara Sukova.
right. Because we have worked with "Europa". But because of many factors, this is not suitable for her. Katrine auditioned for Beth at first, but she was not suitable—or rather the role was not suitable for her. She is a very good actor and very smart. But I gave her a lot of this role, and she wanted it. So formed a wonderful trio, Emily, Strand and Katrin. And I think Jean Marc Barr gave one of his best performances in "Breaking the Waves."
The way you edit is very unorthodox and breaks all the rules. Did it take a long time?
No, editing is simple. We took very long shots, none of them are like the others. The actors can move freely in the scene without following a precise plan.
When editing, our only purpose is to enhance the intensity of the performance, without worrying about whether the image is sharp, whether it is carefully arranged, or whether the lens remains on the axis. The result is that the time in the scene jumps very much, which can hardly be said to be a jump in time. These produce a compression effect. I basically developed what I learned in "Hospital Storm".
If you were to select an image from "Breaking the Waves" to represent the entire film, which one would you choose—why?
Well, you know very well that as a director, one of the reasons you make a movie is that an influence is not enough. At the Cannes Film Festival, we have an all-black poster because we cannot decide on a single image to represent the entire film. This poster is all black, only the title and some names. It looks like a performance poster, printed on some kind of soft material. I like it very much. I have to say that no one image can be selected to represent the entire film.
An image in a movie is often used as a poster. You must have selected from hundreds of them. It is a close-up of Emily Watson looking directly at the camera, so it becomes directly looking at the audience. Why did you choose that one?
The stills are often accidental. There is not always a still photographer on the side, and stills do not always match the shots in the film. That close-up was the first time she had direct contact with the audience. But I didn't like that picture that much. If at some point in the movie I discovered the trick in Emily's performance, it would be there. I remember that we took that shot very well, and we tried many different ways. Probably because this is not a shot of a performance that needs to interact with each other, it is more like a planned scene, subordinate to an idea.
Watching Emily appear in movies always makes me happy, but that picture is really not my favorite.
But if you want to choose another picture of Emily...
I like it? Then I might choose the scene where Beth and the doctor (Adrian Rawlins) face off at the end of the movie. It was shot very early, emotionally very satisfying, but difficult to shoot. That's where I think Emily almost shows magnificence.
If I were to choose a shot in which I like Emily appeared alone, I might choose that short montage, the soundtrack is T. Rex, and she is dancing there. Those are very happy shots, a bit "new wave", I really like them.
"Breaking the Waves" is full of dramatic events, expressing strong emotions-love, passion, faith, betrayal-but also paying attention to details. For example, the interior of Beth’s house, pictures of cats and dogs on the wall, or the hospital. In a very dramatic scene, you can see a woman sitting on the side of the hospital bed comforting her husband in the background. Can you tell me how it is done?
"Broken Waves" is a movie about many accidents. The art director Karl Júlíusson did a good job, letting him decide how to arrange the different scenes. But what we saw in the last shot was a complete coincidence — of course, it happened when you held the camera in hand. There are many details in the set that we can never see in the movie, others are more obvious. But we had a lot of fun taking pictures of Beth’s dog. They are completely vulgar works, we have indeed wondered if they are too much. But on the other hand, they fit the situation. They emphasize realism.
As for the hospital scene, there are others like this. We tried to create credible locations, most of which were later cut out. What the pre-show is doing there is to create a believable atmosphere for the actors. In fact, the appearance of the couple beside the hospital bed in the camera is completely coincidental and not important. What matters is what happens to the actors in the play. In my early films, I spent more time worrying about the details than the actors. Everything has changed now.
I think it’s good to catch a glimpse of that kind of detail in the corner of the movie, because it makes people feel that there is a wider world besides the reality that we pay attention to.
How do you choose the picture of the chapter? Can you talk about the pictures and their background? There is one that impressed me very much.
Most of those panoramas are described in the script, but some have changed a lot. I have been touring Scotland for a long time with photographer Robby Müller and producer Vibeke Windeløv. We took a lot of photos of the landscape and even video. This is a long time before starting to make a movie. At a later stage, we contacted the painter Pell Kirkby, who retouched these pictures on the computer. I especially hope that what Pell-an artist and a theorist-will do is to find different ways of expressing the romantic scenery. I feel that this kind of romanticism should rebel against a deeper banality, but Pell's initial suggestion is far from it. The result can be said to be a sleek mixture of my and his ideas. What he did makes the pictures more interesting and ambiguous. Maybe I pay more attention to flashy things.
The picture of the bridge is actually the first chapter picture we made, and it came out before Pell participated in it. The bridge is on Sky Island, but it is in the middle of a village. So we took out the bridge and matched it with the mountain behind and the waterfall below. Pell processed it again later. He added a special sense of light to the picture. His idea is to add stronger light under the arch in the middle of the picture. There is no naturalistic light to brighten the distant landscape.
I like that picture very much. You can interpret its symbolic meaning as much as possible. You can think of the bridge as a connection between life and death. Water represents eternity. and many more. But I haven't thought about it. Everyone can interpret its symbolic meaning. But I think this is a very expressive picture. And I think it’s great to match David Bowie’s "Life on Mars."
Compared to others, I prefer certain chapters, especially the bridge. I also like that city silhouette with rainbow.
What does the natural beauty of Sky Island mean to you?
I only know that many British romantic painters and writers have been to Sky Island. The scenery there is extremely romantic. Unlike Danish romanticism. It is much more exaggerated. I was particularly impressed by the contrast of the scenery there. In the middle of the dim mountains, there will be cracks with dense vegetation.
When you visit us on the spot, we filmed the cemetery scene in the movie on the mountain. We do want the cemetery to be on the mountain, but we can't. We could have measured the ground and started to build the cemetery, but people will come to protest, they are almost ready to throw stones at the crew. So we had to move the cemetery to a more hidden place, by the water. We tried to find a place with the same scale as the mountain.
The cemetery is still there. The person who owns the land wants to sell the tombstone and other props to the BBC, but he has not succeeded yet. So it became an attraction where people went to see and have picnics. But they want to clear it away. Because it is a cemetery after all-and almost all crew members are buried there! We had to engrave the name on the tombstone, so the crew used their own names.
You often mention Dreyer as a source of inspiration. Do you think the same is true for this movie?
Yes, I can say that "The Passion of Joan of Arc" and "Gertrud" are very important to "Broken Waves". Dreyer's films are naturally more academic and elegant. What is new for me is the story of the female protagonist. Of course, all Dreyer films feature women as the protagonists—the same women who suffer. The original title of the movie was "Amor omnie" (Amor omnie), and Ge Chu hopes to become her epitaph in the Deleire movie. When my producer heard the title, he exploded. He couldn't imagine anyone would want to watch a movie called "Love is Everything".
At the end of "Breaking the Waves", Beth, who was injured and expelled, returned to the church. She opposed the church’s rules for women to be quiet. She said: "You can't love the oath. You can only love one person." The sentence Tektronix can be regarded as right. Dreyer's tribute and response.
There may be an over-interpretation of the writing, but that is actually one of the few lines I rewritten on the spot. In the script, there are some long-winded sentences that are basically unformed. She broke out to select a few words that the church congregation said and supported—and then opposed it. The priest talked about loving vows and laws. That is the only thing you have to obey, that is what makes a person complete. But Beth misinterpreted the concept, saying that the only thing that can make a person complete is to love another person. That is actually the morality of this movie.
But the lines were rewritten just before the filming. In the script, Beth should say: "Dear God, thank you for the gift of divine love. Thank you for creating the love that makes people human. Dear God..." Emily Watson and I discussed the lines. Said she did not understand. I am very grateful to her because they really suck. According to the script, no one had spoken in the church before this. No, the later lines are much better. She and the priest are also very good. So you can say that Beth represents feminism against misogynistic clergy. Her sister-in-law, too many, is the same.
Yes, especially at the end of Beth's funeral.
Yes, Duoduo rebelled against the powerful, the male hierarchy.
One concept, one element that continues most of your previous works is ironic. There is not much irony in "Broken Waves".
When I was at the film school, they said that all good movies have some form of humor. All movies, except Dreyer's! Many of his films have no humor. You can say that, in a sense, when you instill humor in your movie, you create distance. In this film, I don't want me to be at a distance from the emotions contained in the plot and the characters.
I think this kind of strong emotional involvement is very important to me, because I grew up in a culturally radical family, where strong emotions are forbidden. The members of my family who have seen this movie are very picky about it-my brother and uncle (Børge Høst, Danish short film, documentary film director, producer), he also participated in the film. My brother thought the movie was cold and dull, and my uncle thought it was wrong from beginning to end. But in addition, he is very supportive of my early works. Perhaps "Breaking the Waves" is my adolescent rebellious work...
"Breaking the Waves" has achieved worldwide success. It won the Grand Prix of the Jury at the Cannes Film Festival and has won numerous awards in different film festivals around the world. The comments were overwhelmingly good, and the audience flocked to watch. But soon there was a counter reaction in Denmark and Sweden, and the film was criticized by feminist critics. They oppose the image of Beth sacrificing everything (even her life) for her husband. "Broken Waves" is accused of misogyny, full of shameless manipulation.
I have not faced these allegations directly. Of course everyone has the right to form their own opinions about the film. The only thing I have to say is that I am surprised that it took so long for such criticism to appear. I thought it would be earlier. As early as when we were looking for investment and only had a summary of the plot, we were faced with this kind of criticism in the later casting of the movie. Most women read the story with the same reaction, the same strong.
But later, the film has its own power. The provocative part of the script is less provocative in the final film. If you summarize the story of the movie in a few sentences, of course it will appear provocative. In Denmark, no critics think this is a problem. Even "Information" (Information), which is a very academic daily newspaper, also praised the film, which is very powerful, because they are always very picky about my work. But then they published the opinions of a group of angry feminists, a debate that I was not interested in participating in. I understand that a large part of this is copied from Swedish comments.
One of the ideas of this film is to try this extremely provocative and totally unbelievable plot. I think if we get an audience who accepts it, if we can make an audience accept it, then we will succeed. But outside of manipulating the audience, I never want to do this. I think "Broken Waves" is a beautiful story, but the reaction to it did not surprise me. In that sense, the movie worked again. It should be a godsend for people to participate in the debate. Feminists and others should be fortunate to find a work that provokes this kind of debate, and are happy to use it to support their point of view.
A female art history professor in the United States started this debate in Sweden. She summarized her comment with Alexandre Dumas's advice to the newcomer writer: "Let your heroine suffer!"
But, my goodness, most American movies follow that advice too...!
In response, Maria Bergom-Larsson, who is also a radical feminist and a Christian, described the film as the story of a modern saint, and put forward the hymn of the Virgin as the film’s motto: "It is called a loss of authority, called humble It’s higher.”
This is a beautiful idea, and I agree with it wholeheartedly. On the other hand, Danish feminists can hardly offer religious interpretations. Hymns are something they will attack immediately. This will only make them more angry. As a reminder, Danish feminists may have become better in the past few years. Ten years ago, they were much smarter. They might want to see me being castrated.
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