By Mark Harris/Vulture (October 23, 2020)
Proofreading: Onegin
The translation was first published in "Iris"
David Fincher's 11th feature, Mank, is the most passionate work on the director's resume - a black-and-white drama about the formative years of Hollywood talkies, which he calls The pain and ecstasy between the directors and writers of "Forced Collaboration," and the political ruthlessness of the Golden Age studios, are all told through the journeys of their little-known protagonists -- Herman Mankiewicz ( Gary Oldman), the journalist-turned-writer who co-wrote (or wrote alone, depending on personal opinion) the screenplay for Orson Welles' Citizen Kane.
Every frame of the film is imbued with Fincher's soulful yet dispassionate take on film history and filmmaking, and at the same time it has an unexpected political resonance about media manipulation and the fabrication of so-called "fake news." The information is relevant - 30 years ago, when his late father Jack first wrote the script for the film review, it was unforeseen. For Fincher, "Mank" is an unusually personal film, not only because it commemorates his work with his father (who died in 2003), but also because in a way, it The two of them had a deep conversation about the movie when they were young boys. Its history also runs through Fincher's entire film career - the initial drafts were written before he directed his first film. In two interviews over a long weekend, I chatted with the director about every aspect of the film.
Reporter: You once told me that you would say to Alan Sorkin from time to time, while filming The Social Network, "We're doing a John Hughes version of Citizen Kane." We were about the same age. , has been a movie fan since childhood. Even before I saw Citizen Kane, it was widely regarded as the greatest American film of all time.
David Fincher: Indeed. My father, because he was a journalist, believed in the idea that the greatest entertainment is made by people who know the real world, and his love of Crime City and Citizen Kane backed up that idea, That is, the best movies are based on reality by creators who often have a fairly extensive background in journalism. When I was about 7 years old, my father started explaining to me the persistence of vision, how animation works, and the concept of perforated film. He did a ton of work explaining it to me, and even at that age, I was convinced that movies would be my life's work. When we talk about questions like, "Are the Beatles the best band in the world?" he says, "Well, it varies from person to person." But when you ask, "The greatest movie of all time is What?" His answer was, without a doubt, Citizen Kane. I remember when I was 12, I told him we were going to see a 16mm version of Citizen Kane in a movie appreciation class. I'm kind of silent because...a movie from 33 years ago? It feels like a cave painting. But when I saw it, I was totally blown away. I didn't understand the director's technique at the time, but just as a pragmatic thing -- not the "That Nasty Cat" and "Ghostbusters" style I'm used to. I was totally hit. I feel like I see something important, although I don't understand it yet.
Reporter: In other words, it affects you deeply when you spend most of your time watching children's films.
David Fincher: In our family, my father believed quality over quantity. He grew up in movie theaters. And his father was an alcoholic and his mother was working all the time, so he spent many weekends going to the movies unattended, including three Tom Meeks Westerns, and that was a peace of mind for him and safe place. He wouldn't mind if I went to see Westworld or Merry Christmas, but he'd say, "That's crap." He forgave my offense and took me there when I was 9 Watched Dr. Strangelove and took me to see 2001: A Space Odyssey when I was 7 years old. Until I was a teenager, we probably watched a movie together every week. I remember when I was about to watch the first Alien, I said to him, "Let's watch it with me." He ended up moving around restlessly in his seat, covering his face from time to time.
Reporter: Did your father talk to you about Herman Mankiewicz?
David Fincher: I don't think my father even knew about Mankiewicz. Raising Kane Equally important credit to Wells) was seen on microfilm when I was in high school.
Reporter: You must have spent a lot of time on microfilm.
David Fincher: I had this book in my father's study. It wasn't until he retired from writing magazine stories that he said, "I'm thinking of writing a script." The first thing he said was, "What subject should I be working on?" when he was 60 or 61 years old. I said, "Why don't you write the Herman Mankiewicz story?" He thought the idea was interesting, and he went all out, but the script ended up being limited. This is the story of a great writer being wiped from popular memory by a showy megalomaniac.
Reporter: What was your career situation at that time?
David Fincher: I haven't directed a movie yet, and I'm about to make one. I spent two years at Pinewood Studios, hired as a shooter for a multinational, vertically integrated media conglomerate, and had a different perspective on how writers and directors work. I kinda hate my father's anti-directorist attitude. I think what really needs to be talked about at the script stage is the concept of "forced collaboration": you might not like to let so many different norms and skills in the making of a movie, but if you don't acknowledge it, you're missing out many things. The script is like an egg that needs a sperm donor to trigger cell division, make it stretchable in three-dimensional space, and record and show it to others in two-dimensional space. It was interesting for both of us because obviously I was very supportive of him, but when I read his first draft, I thought, it's a subversion of Welles. When I was 12, he told me how Wells played all kinds of roles—writer, producer, director, star. So I know he's in awe of Wells. Then when the script was written, I thought, wow, who is this guy?
Reporter: One of the things I like about Mank is that it has a lot of empathy for Mankiewicz, but it's not anti-director.
David Fincher: The first version of the script felt like a revenge. I said to him, "You're two people who are on the same set and never seem to see each other. If it's made into a movie, it can't happen. You can't be alone." Although he was in the magazine Wrote a lot of stories about the filmmaker and knew a lot of jargon, but he didn't know where the overall blueprint ended and the geological survey started. This is difficult. We worked on it together for a while, and then I left for a while to do The Seven Deadly Sins. He later discovered Upton Sinclair's "Ending Poverty in California" (EPIC) program; he learned that Irving Saulberg and Louis Mayer teamed up with Hearst, (via the clip Anti-Sinclair) 's fake news clips) in a way set a precedent for fake news.
Reporter: After Mayer and Sahlberg get their hands on Sinclair's plan, the film suggests that Mankiewicz felt he was sacrificing his integrity.
David Fincher: When Jack showed me the script, I said, "I don't understand what this part has to do with the conflict between Wells and Mankiewicz." Jack replied, "I think What it means is that some people find their words carry a lot of weight." At the time, I didn't realize he was reflecting on his life's achievements. I'm not sensitive to it because I'm only 30 years old and didn't realize what this opportunity meant to him. But when I started thinking about it, I realized it was the magical marrow from which would grow the red blood cells that this story needs—about a man finding his voice. How did you end up in Hollywood if your parents were intellectually demanding children? (Herman and his younger brother Joseph) came out and helped the sound movie gain a foothold. I've always been pretty sure Herman lived a poor life, and I know Jack felt the same way. So this is where the three of us can empathize. I remember making music videos and people would say, "Oh my God, you made that George Michael video? That's great." I thought, hold yourself back. It was just a music video for a bunch of supermodels.
Reporter: Did you continue to improve the script together afterwards?
David Fincher: We never finished it. I don't want to say I gave up, or he gave up, or I gave up on him, or vice versa. But at the turn of 30, I wasn't as concerned with what to leave behind as someone in my late 60s. So it gradually became cold.
Reporter: Upton Sinclair's gubernatorial campaign is incredibly resonant right now.
David Fincher: How to say?
Reporter: Well, in addition to the fake news point, you've also punctuated the notion that Hollywood has always been a bastion of progressive and liberal values.
David Fincher: With the addition of Sinclair's story, we found a middle ground where we could have a more accurate account of what happened. If Herman Mankiewicz didn't know Hirst, I don't think he could have written so penetratingly. I believe Mankiewicz was involved in the project because he needed the money. When he got to the set, he was encouraged by someone who, instead of limiting him, said to him, "Go deeper, keep writing," and he was finally able to write something that he could be proud of.
Reporter: In this regard, there are two sentences I would like to ask you to analyze. An article from Kyle. "The director should be in control, not because he is the only creative brain, but because only when he is in control can he liberate and exploit the talents of the crew," she wrote.
David Fincher: Pauline Kael knows a lot about watching movies. What she doesn't understand is that making a movie can fill a ton of content, and I believe what ultimately hurts the movie is the notion that everything is purposeful - under which the filmmaking process is like NASA's Work. Like an O-ring can fail, but most of the time, you test the solder joints, the bolts, the circuit, and then when it leaves the launch pad, you're like, "Yeah, that's what we calculated. "It's not like that in movies. The movie is more of an incredible boutique fashion business where each designer works differently under their respective company leaders. You have to get all the clothes together 45 seconds before the model walks down the runway. It was a carnival, an extremely chaotic circus show. It is neither indifferent nor calculable. It's a warm and moist art.
Reporter: Another line from your father's script. When the first draft of Citizen Kane was ready for Welles, Mankiewicz said, "I built him an impeccable story and a suggested destination. Where would he take it , it's all his work." Do you think that's how screenwriters see directors? Or is that how you see the director's work?
David Fincher: I think this line is the writers' greatest hope for the script: "This is the end of my work. My time here is over." And then, like Superman, they left. I think Citizen Kane's script is so good because when Herman started writing it, he thought, "Thank God, my name wasn't signed. I'm going to work." He took off his gloves and went all out. There is absolutely no debate - Wells is a genius. In fact, it's his first film, and it's simply shocking. All who stood on his shoulders were in awe of him, but having said that, I've seen his movies based on a script he wrote. They are not one level.
Reporter: To what extent do you think Mankiewicz's story is a cautionary tale?
David Fincher: I never wanted it to be a cautionary tale. I think it has to do with alcoholism - both sides of it. On the one hand he looks like a self-destructive guy, on the other hand people say, "Oh my gosh, he's so much more fun when he's drunk." When he sees a need for his wife to undress him, he feels It's kind of pathetic. Sometimes these people are ten times smarter when they are drunk than when they are sober. This is definitely an oxymoron, but more realistic to me.
Reporter: Those plots about fake news and campaigning feel very current, and I'm curious if the script has changed a lot since your father passed away.
David Fincher: My father died in 2003. We were going to make the movie in 1997 or 98, but then I went and did Trembling Room first. Around 2001, we again had our differences of opinion. The project was shelved, and he fell ill. He spent the last year and a half of his life undergoing or talking about chemotherapy, and at that time, we all knew he wouldn't live to make it into a movie. We settled with it. After I shot Mindhunter, Cindy Holland and Ted Sharondas said to me, "What do you want to do next? Is there anything you've always wanted to do?" I said, " Well, it does." I went back and read the script and thought, "Wow, this stuff has always been here, and it should have been filmed now." It seemed like it all suddenly opened up. I gave them the script and they said, "We're going to do this." So we did it. But in 2000, it was very difficult even to get people to understand the meaning of the fake news storyline. They'll say, "Why are you talking about this? Oh, there's some footage of fake news - you have to give them high marks for their efforts! Black and white? Well, no, thank you."
Reporter: So shooting in black and white was the intention from the beginning?
David Fincher: Yes. There's a lot of people saying, "Yeah, except for the black and white part, it's period drama, mono recording, about the guy who wrote Citizen Kane, all of which we love." And then, because Netflix wanted It's all-inclusive, so we decided to let us integrate all these elements.
Reporter: How much was the script rewritten?
David Fincher: I re-read the script with Eric Ross and discussed everything. He's always been a very capable gadfly, I mean, he'll stab people like a gadfly and risk the world! He also talks about things he doesn't understand. The first thing we talked about was a scene Jack wrote where someone said to Mankiewicz, "It's going to be the most challenging thing in your life because all the shackles are taken off. The president is in charge. I'm here to make the movie I want to make, so it's up to you and me, man." Eric said, "Oh, my God. This is horrible." I said, "Look. , this is something you can understand but Jack can't," that is, you get a professional screenwriter and say to him, "'You don't have to be accountable to anyone. You just need to write the script.' You will What was the reaction?" His response was, "Stuck." At that moment, I knew I had to talk to this guy about the script. Suffice to say, no one respects writers more than I do, and we're in the same foxhole. The foundation of this relationship must be searing and blind honesty and vulnerability. You have to be able to say, "This is the worst thing you've ever written," and "I can't believe you're doing this to me." And they have to be able to tell you, "Why don't you want to go for something higher? "There are many ways in which we can push, stimulate, encourage, or humiliate each other, and of course, in this intimacy, all of these must be based on fairness.
Reporter: What were you doing before you decided to make this movie?
David Fincher: We finished the first season of Mindhunter without a producer, and I had some tinkering to do every week. Later, we got the script for the second season one after another, and after reading what I wrote, I didn't like it at all. So we throw it away and start over. I got Courteney Miles, who I did on a commercial with me when she wanted to write something, and she and I co-produced Mindhunter. But back then we were working 90 hours a week. It takes almost everything in your life. When I finished the second season, exhausted, I said, "I don't know if I'm going to make it to the third season now."
Reporter: Have you been in Pittsburgh for a long time?
David Fincher: We lived there for almost three years. Not three years in a row, but we were in Pittsburgh about six or seven months of each year during those three years. We have an apartment and a car there. Mindhunter means a lot to me.
Reporter: So for you, Mindhunter is over?
David Fincher: Maybe. This is a very expensive show. We've talked about "waiting for Mank to see what's going on," but to be honest, I don't think we're going to pay any less than Season 2. In a way, you have to be realistic and money has to be as important as visual stimulation.
Reporter: When was "Manke" filmed?
David Fincher: The camera was turned on in September and October last year, and filmed until the end of February, just before the quarantine.
Reporter: The acting style is completely the feeling before Brando or method acting came along. Did the actors quickly adapt to your directing style?
David Fincher: I think in modern film acting there is a notion that actors should let go of their emotions. It's a good start, but we've embraced a more old-school acting style, where you go to the marker, say your line, don't hit the furniture, and move on to the next scene. The first few days were a lot of fun, allowing the cast to speak their minds. Brando's contribution to the film is an incredible gift and a curse. And to go beyond the "I'm going to come to the set with an emotion and I'm only going to take a few to make sure it's in place..." thinking that doesn't apply right now.
Reporter: Was it difficult for the actors to adapt to the speaking style of that era in the movie?
David Fincher: Gary can do anything. If you say to other actors, "You're going to act like George Sanders," they'll ask, "What? Who is that?" But Gary and Charles Dance will raise their eyebrows, nod, smile, and they know what do you want. For some people...that's a big deal, because we're used to supporting characters that don't have that kind of rapport. Like, "It's not a problem. When your accent is at the end, it sounds like you don't know it's not a problem." There's a lot of trivial things to deal with.
Reporter: Gary Oldman was 61 when the film started, much older than Mankiewicz, who was 43 when Citizen Kane came out. But Pauline Kael mentioned Mankiewicz's premature ageing, and Scott Fitzgerald called him "a broken man".
David Fincher: I'm 58 years old. Gary looks about my age relative to me. Herman, who was 43 at the time, looked 55. By the time he died at 55, he looked like he was 70. Herman's life is very embarrassing. Smoking and drinking are not good for his body either. Sure, we could have a 43-year-old actor with a premature aging face, but for me, it's more about looking for the best actor.
Reporter: How has the epidemic affected you?
David Fincher: We originally planned to loop the entire movie. We have a lot of location shoots, and you can hear leaf sweepers on any neighborhood in LA. We didn't play it repeatedly as planned, but we did play it a lot. Because (laughs), I don't know if you know... I took several. So we were able to pull the audio from different places, so we didn't end up needing to loop a lot of times - which is nice because looping turned out to be one of the weirdest and most Havoc-like passages.
Reporter: How do you say?
David Fincher: When you walk into the studio, everyone has to wear a mask. Then someone would come in with a nebulizer and antiviral spray, and we would be there for maybe half an hour, working on six or seven lines of lines, and then leaving, and then they would sanitize. This is just crazy. Amanda Seyfried does the rewatching job from her upstate New York home. They sent her a whole outfit, and she did all the looping through Zoom.
Reporter: The movie looks and sounds like something from the studio era.
David Fincher: Sound engineer Len Cox and I started talking years ago about how to make it look like it was found in the UCLA archives, or in Martin Scorsese's Repaired in the basement. All sounds are compressed to sound like they are from the 1940s. The music was recorded with vintage mics, so there was a kind of hiss and squeak around the edges - you can hear it from the strings, but generally from the wind in most cases. What you're hearing right now is like a resurrected house -- an old theater that's showing a movie. It's funny because I've heard it to some people and they'd say, "What's up with that sound? It sounds so warm." And I replied, "Well, what you mean by 'warm' is, it sounds so warm. Like an old movie.” We spent three weeks longer than planned to figure out how to separate those particles. The idea (visually) was to shoot at super high resolution first and then bring it down. So we softened almost everything to an absurd level, trying to match the style of that era. To make it feel the same, we probably lost two-thirds of the resolution, and then we also added some scratches, grains, and cigarette burns. small bright spots resembling smoke rings).
Reporter: I noticed those smoke rings.
David Fincher: Yeah, we mixed the explosions in the soundtrack, like we did in the movie when there are smoke rings. It's one of the most soothing voices I've ever heard. They're so low that they're barely audible until you actually hear them. It has what we call a "membrane," and these little pops are beautiful.
Reporter: You belong to the type of top directors who work with screenwriters, rather than writing scripts yourself, which is quite rare in the current era of screenwriters and directors. Even those scripts for which I think you've contributed a lot, you don't take credit.
David Fincher: I'm not a screenwriter. I don't take credit for things I didn't do. I am the son of a screenwriter. I can't do that. I once saw someone put a blank piece of paper on a 1928 Underwood typewriter and sit there for 45 minutes. I know how lonely that is.
Reporter: So, apparently, it was your father who brought all the—
David Fincher: Yes, without a doubt. I don't want to be sentimental about it, but I mean...he brought me a love of movies and would talk to me about it, dig deeper into it - and he left. I did talk to Chian Chaffin (Finch's wife and producer) and she said, "To what extent are you doing it for yourself?" and "You've been thinking about this movie for too long. You don't do any good." Some of the actors in the film weren't even born when the script was originally written. Two years of anticipation is enough, twenty years is too long. I have nine drafts on my shelf. I am cleaning that shelf. Time to take a deep breath.
Reporter: When we talked about Mark Zuckerberg years ago when he was an undergrad, you said, "I know what it's like to be 21, thinking about directing a movie with a budget of $60 million, and a The adults in the room are sitting together, and they think you're cute, but they don't let you control anything." It made me wonder if you would imagine Wells the same way.
David Fincher: When you're 25, there's no end to what you don't know. It would be helpful if you had Greg Toland on your side. But it's also undeniable that a 25-year-old with a brilliant screenplay, cinematographer and composer has made one of the greatest American films of all time. Movies are complex. It takes a lot of money and it takes a very strong ego. Wells and Mankiewicz are people that each other desperately needs. Dissecting Hirst requires a arrogance that few people possess. That's exactly what Mankiewicz wants to do, but it's the playful smile of the 23-year-old director, who has only done radio drama "War of the Worlds," that makes it all happen. What I want to talk about is this. I want to talk about their collaboration. What to do with a troublesome guy like Herman Mankiewicz? How do you get him out of his comfort zone? You took him out of the traps that would make him a mess and put him in the desert and put him on a schedule and the result might still be a mess, but interesting stuff came out of it.
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